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The MythBusters shot the REVISIT for Firearms Folklore on Tuesday, 28 NOV 06, one day BEFORE Episode #67: Firearms Folklore aired.
Some people have confused the "revisit" with Episode #67. This revisit should air in a couple of months.
For the revisit, we shortened the distance to approximately 10 yards, since accuracy had already been proven as an insignificant factor for the reenactment. In Firearms Folklore, we were able to hit the 3-9x50 variable scopes at 100 yards pretty much at will.
Gunny Hathcock admitted he aimed at just at the enemy's scope "glint" -- which was contrary to his SOP -- so, accuracy was not a true factor for the actual event OR our revisit. Even Gunny Hathcock called this shot VERY lucky. Still, I also believe distances always play a significant role in the penetration potential of any projectile.
The distance issue will be addressed later, as well as Gunny Hathcock's reputation as an innovator for some of the theories we should consider, as to the how this shot may have actually occurred.
What we really KNOW as CONFIRMED of the legendary Hathcock scope shot is as follows:
1.) Gunny saw the glint, took the shot and killed the enemy sniper.
2.) Gunny's observer, LCPL John Burke, witnessed the shot, but was KIA in Vietnam.
3.) They found a dead enemy sniper, a bloodied Mosin-Nagant, and a PU scope with all the glass blown out of it.
4.) The dead enemy sniper suffered massive eye trauma.
5.) No autopsy was performed as to specific cause of death.
6.) Physical evidence was collected, and they both left the area quickly.
Unfortunately, the actual distance and type of ammunition is still open to debate.
For the revisit, I sighted in all of the ammunition and the rifles, so we would know the point of impact of the test rifle and the test ammunition -- BEFORE actually shooting at the scopes.
Since we only had six scopes (which is a very small sample for any experiment, FWIW), we wanted to make as best use of them as possible.
Further, it should be emphasized, the MythBusters ONLY evaluate the lore, legends and myths.At times, the MythBusters -- contrary to the title -- try to reenact events, which are, in truth -- one in a million facts -- but facts, nonetheless. MythBusters editors also edit these episodes in a manner that appeals to the largest audience.
As such, to the apparent chagrin of many firearms enthusiasts, MythBusters was never designed as a technical firearms show. Much technical firearms data revealed during actual evaluation is later summarized, abbreviated or left out, so as not to bore the "everyman" audience.
The MythBusters DO NOT set out to create a conclusion. While many times, we have strong suspicions something is truly a myth even before the evaluation, we try not to have preconceived notions.
They just try their best to run honest evaluations, as they see them.
We have learned that preconceived notions are too often incorrect.
Additionally, in a global society full of anti-gun agendas, it is refreshing to know that the MythBusters do NOT prescribe to such anti-gun sentiment.
As a Life/Endowment Member of the NRA, firearms enthusiast for 38 years and a Firearms Instructor for the last 18 years -- it is critical to me that I participate ONLY in endeavors that do NOT demonize firearms in the first place.
Often, we firearms enthusiasts are our own worst enemies. Now, some people will read this and provide constructive criticism. Others will just scream because they can.One would think with as many anti-gun interests that exist to restrict or ban our personal rights to own a firearm -- we gun enthusiasts would do better to refrain from getting into silly debates with each other. Yet, such ego contacts happen all too frequently.
Perhaps that's why we lose so many fights in this area, and why the MythBusters will likely have more firearms myth material.
Still, I digress.
Here is what was used for the Sniper Scope Revisit, and their results:
1st Shot: .308 168 grain Boat Tail Hollow Point Sierra Match King from Remington 700 LTR (Lightweight Tactical Rifle).
Contrary to popular belief, the 168 BTHP Match King is NOT designed to "break apart," as so many claim. The BTHP MK is designed to make very small holes in paper.The HP aspect does NOT aid in expansion -- it promotes accuracy and aerodynamics. In suspects, the BTHP rounds perform virtually identically to the FMJ's, and one only needs to study what happened to Randy Weaver to confirm such information.
All of the PU lenses were smashed, but we could NOT find a bullet hole in the ballistic head. The little PU scope held together great! Still, the glass was all gone, and it looked like the bullet went clear through the tube. We found some shards of copper, a lot of powdered glass -- but NO bullet found in the scope.
The high speed camera captured what appeared to be a 6-7" pulse of hot metal and shattered glass, which splattered all over the ballistic dummy's eye, and in my humble opinion, was likely lethal, too.
2nd Shot: M72 .30-06 173 grain Lake City FMJ Match load from M1 Garand.
This is the load that many historians believe Gunny Hathcock used with respect to this incident. This notion is based on what is known to be issued equipment to Vietnam-era snipers while in country, and documented in Marine Sniper and Silent Warrior.
Still, Gunny Hathcock was a known innovator in this arcane art. As such, the truth is likely more that he could have been using virtually anything available to him, including handloads and 180 grain Match Kings. After all, Gunny Hathcock purchased the Winchester Model 70 and the Unertl (first an 8x, and then a 10x) scopes on his own.
From personal experience, I know that tactical operators frequently have to purchase much of our own equipment to accommodate the SWAT mission. As such, snipers are no exception.Today, snipers are still largely responsible for obtaining their own kit, hence the creation of such charitable organizations as ADOPTASNIPER.
Surprisingly, the 173 FMJ results were the same as the 168 BTHP MK. No bullet hole found.
3rd Shot: M72 .30-06 173 grain Lake City FMJ Match load.
Same as previous results. A major portion of the bullet core was located on the lip of the eyepiece. It appeared to have "bounced off" the ballistic eye and then land on the scope lip!
4th Shot: M2 .30-06 USGI 175-180 grain Armor Piercing (Tungsten, carbide or steel core).
This shot angled off, penetrated the side of the scope, and did not go through the center of the scope tube -- although ALL of the glass in the tube was pulverized. It appeared the energy transfer alone was sufficient to break all the lenses, even when the projectile passed through the side.
5th Shot: .30-06 USGI M2 AP (Redux)
This shot also shattered all the optic's glass and a possible bullet/trauma hole was located in the ballistic dummy's shooting eye.
The "autopsy" of the ballistic head conducted at the shop two days later revealed a projectile had passed through the eye and lodged itself 2.5 inches behind the eye socket.
As such, Adam and Jamie call this event PLAUSIBLE, pursuant to the definitions described by their show.
Altough I must INSIST the historical event was NOT a myth in the first place (it is a CONFIRMED fact documented in the annals of military history, by then-Staff Sergeant Hathcock and his Lance Corporal, John Burke, who was killed in action) -- PLAUSIBLE is a reasonable conclusion given the MythBusters' definition parameters.
In my humble opinion, there are several fine points to consider. I consulted with Mike Miller, a 25-year U.S. Army Sniper School Instructor and former Police Sergeant, and confirmed these points with him:
1.) Longer distances translate as the bullet's actually being more prone to maintaining its integrity, thus making it all the way through the scope tube without the bullet's shattering.
As such, I would expect there will be at least two schools of thought, as to how this experiment could be improved.
Some will argue that greater distance and lower velocities allow the bullet to stay intact, while others will argue that MORE energy is required to accomplish such a feat.
Some will suggest the .50 BMG -- JUST so they can watch something come apart.
In the end, the slightly lower velocities of the .308 WIN address some aspect of the distance arguments. Also, the gas operation of the M1 Garand vs. the bolt action of a Model 70 Winchester aids such an argument.Thus, the energy proponents will be more inclined to accept the test as conducted, whereas the distance/lower velocity proponents will not.
People like to hold onto their beliefs, which makes MythBusting precarious work. Rest assured, we don't have the time, inclination or agenda to "rig" any tests.
2.) The 1968 Lake City Match FMJ ammunition that was donated for evaluation was incapable of producing 1 MOA groups, whereas the AP ammunition performed MUCH BETTER than the FMJ MATCH. The box was in perfect unopened condition from 1968, so I doubt storage was an issue -- although I would wager some critics would call that a flaw in the test, as well.
More importantly, while certainly speculative -- it is entirely reasonable to assume that Gunny Hathcock KNEW the AP ammunition was more accurate! As a true innovator, Gunny Hathcock VERY LIKELY used an AP load because of their inherent length and accuracy, due to its increased weight at 175-180 grains. Several accounts indicate his preference for 180 grain loads.
The data we obtained is still data. The interpretation, while always subject to debate, is reasonable.Lastly, I am the owner of the actual rifle and scopes used in this experiment.
While I reserve the right to reveal more at a later date, I assure you that this humble Mosin-Nagant and its attached PU sight/scope (with a bullet hole down the centerline) WILL go to some very good causes -- both of which, I firmly believe Gunny would have approved.
In summary, the odds of reproducing this event under the same conditions is truly "one in a billion" shot. Of course, we all agree that Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock, II was a "one in a billion" man. Even so, Gunny Hathcock was a gentleman, and often demonstrated more humility, integrity and honor than most of the critics.
So, if this little TV show (which averages approximately 1.4 million viewers per new episode) raised some positive awareness of firearms as a whole, and spotlighted the achievements of a true American hero -- hopefully motivating some people to learn more about this legendary man -- much good came from it!
I firmly believe that Gunny Hathcock is winking at us, for having approached this matter with the utmost of respect, and affection...
Be safe, have fun and shoot straight!
E. Alan Normandy, SergeantChief Firearms Instructor
CITY OF SOUTH SAN FRANCISCO
POLICE DEPARTMENT
33 Arroyo Drive, Suite "C"
South San Francisco, CA 94080